Translator's Notes
"Shamanism and
exclusivism" represents a typical form of conservative,
fundamentalist Christianity in Korea. Yonggi Cho, founding
pastor of Yoido Full Gospel Church, along with others, stands
out in this direction. He delivered a rare speech at the
Buddhist Graduate School of Dongguk University, Seoul, Korea,
as a guest speaker. As I hear him, his story of personal
life and ministry takes on a different form of shamanism.
After his speech, he answered that each religion has its
own system of differences and thus has a salvific message.
For me, this statement is a good sign for an interreligious
dialogue in Korea. Unfortunately, upon pressure and accusations
leveled against him, he later changed his position and said
he did not mean any inclusivism or pluralism.
I translated Cho's speech and his interview (Q
& A) because it gives us an opportunity to
talk about shamanism, exclusivism or pluralism. His speech centered
on his coversion and ministiry experience, which shows a shamanistic
understanding of life and faith. After the speech, he had a Q &
A time in which the main topic was the issue of Christian exclusivism.
He was "barbecued" by the questioners: "Do you believe
that Jesus or Christianity is the only way to salvation, and that
other religions are not true?" He answered and affirmed a mild
form of pluralism or inclusivism, certainly not of an exclusivism.
This kind of answer was a total surprising for many people because
he is one of the most fundamental pastors (he is a pentecostal)
who always say Christianity or Jesus is the only way; other religions
are simply wrong in that matter. But on this day he spoke out boldly
about his view of other religions. He said Buddhism has its own
salvation. We (Christians and Buddhists) need to coexist. Guess
what? After this day event, he was again severely "barbecued"
by many fundamentalists or believers or followers. Soon I heard
that he corrected his position in public (at his church), saying
basically "I didn't mean that kind of pluralism" (in a
way he defended his earlier position maybe because he was afraid
of losing his secure place). This incident reminds me of Joel Osteen,
who said a similar thing at his interview with the CNN Larry King
Live; he answered to the similar question about other religions:
"I don't know; God knows our hearts." What he says is
that good works and heart are more important than any other. So
he opened for other ways, even slightly. I don't know much about
him, whether he changed what he said. He is also a pentecostal preacher
whose message (sort of shamanism) and view of other religions resemble
Yonggi Cho's in many regards; indeed, they are pentecostals. At
any rate, I consider this event to be an excellent occasion to discuss
about Christianity in Korea and interreligious dialogue. The ultra
form of Christianity (the right wing) in Korea contains these two
elements: shamanism and exclusivism. Of course, my claim is debatable.
So let us engage each other.
Tips
for Group Discussion
1) His life (context) was very much well addressed in his ministry.
His distinct theology of the threefold blessing was well marked
in his lecture. There are lots of things in his lecture that I
can engage in terms of ethics and the Christian gospel in a specific
sociopolitical, religious context. As you might understand, his
theology is, I can say, just like saying "hope, hope! blessing
and blessing, now and tomorrow" whereas there is no mention
of the gospel of justice or the cost of discipleship. It is a
typical example of charismatic/shamanistically driven faith we
see today throughout the world. But at the same time I find something
very positive in his ministry, especially his passion for the
downtrodden souls struggling in their daily life here and now
in the early 60-70s in Korea where many people literally searched
for "life" on the edge. One woman's criticism against
Christianity in this speech is so powerful: "Here is a hell
already I live now. Show me a little bit of heaven now..."
Cho's theology of "hopes" is contextual, theological
response to the millions of people in Korea so that they might
live with hopes in their desperate time of need. Moltmann can
be a parallel figure in this train of thought.
2) He also, suprisingly enough, made bold statements about other
religions in his lecture, especially during interview after the
lecture. He said, religion is equal and Buddhism has its own concept
of salvation and therefore it should be properly recognized with
each other. I heard, however, that a few days later, standing
at his church pulpit, he denied such sayings that he made. It
is indeed a controversial issue for many Christians in Korea,
who almost automatically exclude other religions in the discourse
of salvation. Did he say what he wanted to say? I think so; because
the occasion of his speech was not a worship, or preaching setting,
but a cultural, inter-religious setting.
His lecture also confirms what I think about the partial aspects
of Korean Christianity as I wrote in Cambridge Dictionary
of Christianity, (entry name: Christianity in South Korea),
forthcoming in 2008 by the Cambridge University Press.
Discussion questions
In what context is his theology rooted? Is it good theology or
bad? What are socio-political implications of his theology and
ministry in Korea and the rest of the world? How can he be distinguished
from the role of shaman? How is his theology different from Shamanism?
How does shaman play in the contemporary religion or culture?
Is his Jesus like shaman? How can we comapre him with Joel Osteen,
American pentecostal preacher? Is there any relation between pentecostalism
and plurualism since both of them mildly affirm pluralism?
Yonggi Cho's Speech:
"My Life and Faith"
Yonggi Cho, Yoido Full
Gospel Church, delivered
this speech at the Buddhist Graduate School of Top Management,
Dongguk University, Seoul, Korea, on May 18, 2004
Translated
by Yung-Suk Kim
I am very
glad to be here to speak to you. Actually, I was a bit hesitating
with Dr. Han’s invitation because, as you know, I am not a professional
executive or a trained scholar. As an ordinary pastor, I was
not sure what I would have to say to the distinguished audience
like you, but I made up my mind to come; I believe my speech
would deepen our mutual understanding of different faiths. Often,
debates aim at winning over the other party, but dialogue through
a mutual recognition of differences serves as a good opportunity
for a better understanding of each other. I believe that we
can make a better society if we work together through reconciliation
and cooperation among Christians, Muslims and Buddhists.
I
take this opportunity to share with you my theology based on the
essence of Christianity. Presently, I am serving as a pastor of
750,000-members Yoido Full
Gospel Church - a member church of a larger ecclesial body
of Kidokkyo Daehan Hananim Sunghwe, which has 2,000 churches along with its 1.5 million members.
Worldwide, we are part of 50 million members of the Assembly of
God. Roughly, 200 million people worlwide share a similar faith
with us.
Born
into Buddhist culture, I did not grow up with Christian atmosphere.
It was not a coincidence that our house was surrounded by the
Buddhist temples such as Sunnam
Temple to the north and Bulguk
Temple down the road, and Tongdo Temple toward Busan. I went to bed listening
to the bells in the temples and woke up with the same sound in
the morning. My grandmother, as a devoted member of the Tongdo Temple, had Buddhist name heaven-flower
and studied Zen Buddhism for her life. As the first son in
my family, I used to have Buddhist meditations. Often, my father
said to me, “heart is Buddha; Buddha is not somewhere else but
in your heart; if you are enlightened in your heart, Buddha is
there.” He also told me about “kae-you-bool-sung"
which means that every thing (all) has
Buddhist mind." I grew up with this kind of Buddhist teaching.
Then
at the age of 17 toward the end of the Korean War in 1953, I collapsed
due to an aggravated lung disease. Terminally ill, I vomited a
large amount of blood. Because of the Korean War, our people massively
suffered from poverty and hunger; our family fled to Busan to
seek a refuge, leaving behind the burnt house attacked by the
communists. While in Busan, even with hard work, our daily condition
did not improve at all. I came down with malnutrition with blood-vomiting
continued. Later days at a hospital, I found the right side of
my lung failed. Then a chief doctor told me that my life would
soon end within 6 months. At that time a large scale surgery could
be performed only in Norway; but
I could not afford it. I felt much fear and hopelessness, with
an understanding that my life soon die out. I said to myself,
“Hey, man! From a long-term perspective, what makes difference
between dying at teens and dying at nineties? Don’t worry about
your death. It is eventually the same thing whether you die now
or late.” I lied down on the floor of the rugged card-boarded
house, and looked up the roof; I could not resist bitterness of
my destiny - sadness and hopelessness despite my own justification
for an impending death. Deep down in my heart, however, I had
a yearning for living longer even though I did not know what to
do given my condition of rough breathing with blood vomiting.
In this darkest moment of my life, my father came to pray for
me in a Buddhist way: “being born-aging-sickening-dying is a matter
of heart. Transcend it.” At such a young age, however, I could
not get over it despite my father's urge that I have Buddhist
meditation. I cried one day, “I don’t care whoever will save me.
It could be a Buddha, a Jesus or a Mary. If any one makes me alive,
I will dedicate my life to the savior until I die. Help me to
live. I do not want to die now at the age of 17. Please give me
another chance.” I made a last desperate shout in the midst of
the gravest suffering. A few days later, a friend of my sister's,
a devoted Christian, visited my sick bed, and asked me to have
faith in Jesus Christ. With my father’s opposition to her visit,
I received a Bible but did not feel good because I grew up with
Buddhist way. Upon her request, I began to read the books of Matthew,
Mark and John and found that they were a very different kind of
stroy books; until that time I read only Zen magazines for a long
time that were published in Japan.
In the Zen magazines, there are a vast amount of in-depth philosophy
and logic - a level that defies our verbal expressions. I felt
that this Bible seemed to lack philosophy, logic and profundity
of the story. However, the Bible's story touched on my soul and
body. Because I was a dying person with
no hope of finding cure by the contemporary medical advancement.
I was indeed a person whom doctors and my family gave up. I needed
a miracle. I needed this story of miracles, because I searched
for a person who would make me alive now here on earth, not a
person who will lead me to the other world of the spirits after
death. In the story books of the Bible I found such a figure Jesus
who expelled demons, healed the sick, erected dead persons, fed
the five thousand people with the miracle of two fishes and five
loaves of bread, and who himself arose from the grave three days
after his death. From the eyes of Buddhism with logical thoughts,
the biblical stories seemed very foolish and unpractical, but
for me they were much-needed stories in my hopeless situation.
As a person of desperate hopelessness, I could not live by logic
or theory but needed a supernatural miracle. My father’s teaching
was a transcendence of the deadly situation; it is true that a
living person dies; separation of life and death is evident. Nevertheless,
in reality I could not live with the transcendental spirit of
Buddhism; rather, I was full of desires to live with. Such desires
matched the Bible of Christ. Before this time, I never attended
a church nor read the Bible. Then I thought to myself, “If Christ
is alive today as in the Bible, I can live.” So I knelt down and
prayed: “if you let me live, I would be a monk for you, Jesus.
So let me live.” Fearing my father’s scolding or opposition, I
prayed by myself without being noticed. I thought, my in-youn
(Buddhist term, close to meaning of karma or
fate) was connected with Jesus. Before this prayer, fear and terror
of death bombarded me like the spiraling whirlwind hitting my
head, but after this prayer, peace of mind visited me. I got an
unthinkable conviction that I can live; it is not a psychological
peace. Though I vomited blood with coughing, and received the
doctor’s declaration of impending death, I could get stronger
belief that I could live. The Bible was accepted deep in my heart
even though seemingly nonsensical through the mind’s eye. With
this conviction that I do not die I told my family members that
I won't die because of my faith in Jesus. Then all my family members
wept, thinking that my last day came near. In other words, they
thought that I became confused or schizophrenic. My mother prayed
(to Buddha) that in the next incarnation I would be born into
a rich family with a happy life, because in this life I suffered
a lot. But I said, “don’t say that. I will live.” I wanted to
sing songs even though I did not know any Christian songs; I felt
peace and joy in the midst of hopelessness. Then I got up and
sang a song “O, Night of Shilla, Hear
the Bell of the Bulguk Temple”
(note: this song is a popular folk song in Korea). My loud singing
shook my house. Gradually, my fever and blood-vomiting disappeared.
I began recovering taste of the food. In six months, my breathing
became normal. Finally, I recovered completely in a year. What
a great belief (conviction) – something that cannot be accomplished
by humans – that changed me! Great peace came to me even when
I could not see, hear and capture anything with my eyes, my ears,
and with my hands, or when my way ahead was so dark like black.
The heaven (thekingdom
of God) came into my
heart, as it is said in the Bible that the kingdom
of God (or heaven)
is in one’s heart, not here or there.
I
went to a foreign missionary because I swore that I would live
for Jesus as a monk if I were recovered. With the guidance of
that missionary I came to Seoul,
and studied theology and graduated in 1958. I bought a piece of
24-persons-tent at the Namdaemoon
market and pitched it as a church at one of the poorest villages
in Seoul. Many poor
people coming from Kyungsangdo
and Jellado lived on the top of the mountain at Bulkwang village and temporarily built boarded houses.
I had my tent pitched there to evangelize people. I said, “Go
to heaven with faith in Jesus and if you don’t, you will go to
hell. Repent by believing in Jesus.” With my surprise, however,
nobody came to my church. They did not listen to me and my efforts
of evangelism failed. They were the people of the poorest, making
a bare living day by day. With this absolute poverty, what abounds
was alcoholics, the vulgarly or thieves. Then, a turning point came to my life. A couple
with their nine sons moved from Bukcheong,
North Korea.
The husband had become an alcoholic for the past ten years, drinking
from morning to evening. This father of nine sons would take out
some money from his sons who brought it home by hard working at
the shoe polishing shops, and used to buy alcohols. The wife was
very weak and had the heart and stomach diseases. I knocked on
the door of this family. The wife asked, “Who are you?” I answered,
“I am an evangelist working at a tent church up the village. Let
us go to heaven by believing in Jesus.” Then, staring at me angrily,
she said to me, “I won’t go to heaven. You all religionists are
liars!” I answered, “I did not tell a lie.” The woman continued
to say, “If at death such a beautiful heaven is given, why it
is not possible to have a little bit of heaven here and now on
earth? In our home heaven is not an expensive thing.” “Heaven
at our home is like this: we need a piece of blanket with which
my kids can sleep; rice to eat day after day so that they might
go to school; the cure of my husband from alcoholic. How on heaven
can God lie if he cannot make this kind of small things for us
now? I do not need a beautiful heaven after death. You religionists
are tricksters who make money by giving the poor a psychological
relief.” This woman was a well-educated person from North
Korea. I was shocked and dumbfounded.
It was not I but she who evangelized me. She said: “Right? If
there is a heaven up there, the place we go after death, why can
you not show a little bit of such heaven here and now, and save
us out of this miserable situation?” Nevertheless, I still insisted,
“you go to hell if you don’t believe.” Then, this woman, laughingly
answered, “the hell? Wake up, man! Here is the hell we live now.
We, eleven family members, live in the small square-feet room,
and we are worse off than dogs or pigs. For the past ten years
we never have eaten white rice but flour. With no shoes, clothing,
or hospitals to go, we have here a living hell, hotter than any
other thing, no matter what you say about the hell. I have pains
with my neck because of my nine sons. What can your religion provide
for us?” I returned to my tent church without saying further.
This woman’s saying sounded a bang to my ear: “if there is a heaven,
we need a heaven now, not the one after death. Heaven
now!” Then, my father’s Buddhist teaching also ringed to
my ears: “Heart is thus a Buddha. Buddha is not only in the paradise
but also in my heart.” Wherever Buddha is, there is a Christian
heaven/paradise, or a Buddhist paradise. If one lives now the
living hell and go to heaven only after death, can such a thing
not be an actual lie? The heaven must come here as she insists.
In fact, she lives now in hell. Then what should I say to her?
Christianity
considers it important to give hopes to the needy. How is Christianity
the religion of hope? In the doctrine of Christianity, God created
heaven and earth, and made the Garden of Eden in which God put
Adam and Eve to live joyfully. But they rebelled against God and
fell into sin. As a result, three disasters were brought in. The
first disaster is this: humans became slaves of the devil after
sinning. All kinds of injustice, evil, and corruption took place.
The second disaster: Because of the curse of environment, earth
produced thorns and thistles, and humans had to work hard with
sweats to live. The third one: Humans become old, sick, die and
return to earth. All humankind from their birth lives in these
three disasters, sinning, becoming slaves of the devil, living
and dying with the suffering of hunger, sickness and poverty.
Christ came to save us from these three disasters. Christ came
not to teach ethics or religion. He is the Lord who came to redeem
us. Such is the principle truth taught by the Bible.
Doctrines
or commandments come after Jesus Christ, who came to rescue us
through his death and who took all our burdens of sins, curses,
sickness, and death. Therefore, whoever believes in Jesus, male
or female, young or old, poor or rich, is saved. I was
reminded by my father’s teaching of WonHyo,
a great Buddhist monk in Korean history. WonHyo
says: “there are too many commandments,
but a person can be saved not by keeping all of them but by reciting
‘namooami-tabul.’ Likewise, Jesus Christ,
with the blood on the cross, atoned for our sins and took instead
of us the curses, death, and infirmities. Therefore, the simple
message is that whoever believes in him will receive the three-fold
blessing: souls are well; all things go well; you can live healthy
life. That is why we call this holistic salvation, which is not
just about the soul but also about the spirit (soul), the body
(flesh) and the present life. Such a holistic message of salvation
is central in our Christianity. Our
Christianity sometimes teaches that we have to keep the commandments
rather than to believe in Jesus. Though some churches incessantly
teach that we have to keep the law and the commandments, I believe
that by the simple faith and God’s grace we are
forgiven from sin; being free from curses; receiving the
blessings of God; healed from diseases; being saved.
I have been
connected with Jesus Christ because of this hope. Out of the complete
hopelessness, I read the Bible and found a great pillar of the
fire of hope. I realized that what this woman needs are hopes,
not heaven or hell that people go after death, or by keeping the
law. So I went to see that lady again. She said, “Why did you
come back? I don’t have anything to give you.” Then, I replied,
“No, won’t you change your destiny?” This lady retorted back,
“What can you do to change my life?” “I know a person who will
change your lot. If you turn to him, you will have your husband
back with no more alcohol addiction, have food to eat, have free
education for your children, and have a good house with sanitary
facilities,” I said. This woman asked, “Who is he? Where?”
I said, “Follow me and I will let you meet him.” She followed
me with sandals on her feet. This was a surprise to me. She did
not listen to me when I tried to win her through the law and the
commandments of the gospel. In fact she resisted my efforts of
evangelization. But now she follows me when I talk about hopes.
Arriving at my tent church on the field, where the floor
was covered with straw-mattresses, she asked, “Where is your church?”
I said, “Here is my church.” Looking around the tent church, she
roared with a big laughter, pulling her stomach, “What are you talking
about? You and I have the same lot of poverty.” I said, “You are
right. The life of you and me is equally poor, but we are hopeful
in Jesus Christ. Let us believe in him so that we are spiritually
saved, materialistically blessed, freed from curses, lived healthily,
cured from sickness, and we gain an everlasting life of resurrection.”
She was not angry about my talks about hope. She began
to come to my tent church and did almost every day. We talked about
hopes and prayed together. Amazing things happened. This woman,
with this kind of hope, began to rejoice, smile, sing praises, and
finally her psychologically driven diseases (related to the stomach
or heart diseases) were cured. Then after three months of prayer
for her husband, her husband began to attend our church after stopping
alcohols. With the help of North Korea Refugees Association, this
family managed to live with rice and got a job. Gradually, the nerves
of this broken family began to move toward normality. Kids could
go to school. Furthermore, a new house was built
through the help of this church. This story appears to
prove my preaching about the hopes. This woman, within three months
of believing in Jesus, saw the manifestation of the Christian message
such a way that “your soul is blessed with health, and everything
works together.” I felt good about this message of great hope –
the threefold blessing, and the holistic salvation. Through preaching
about hopes, our church grew fast to the membership of 500 in three
years since I worked in this village. With much enthusiasm of these
newly hope-full members, through their prayers and dedication, our
church grew faster and made another big move to Seodaemoon,
Seoul in 1961. Many
people laughed at me when I started a church there because there
were already big established churches such as Independence
Church, Ahyun
Methodist Chruch,
Jungdong
Church, and Saemoonan
Chruch
in the region of our church. They had reasons to say that because
I, a 26-year-old young person, entered that established region without
fear. They thought that I was crazy. But I knew one thing. In the
1960s, Korea
began to take a process of modernization. President
JungHee
Park launched Saemaeul
(New Village)
Movement, and ambitious economic development programs. As a result,
many people from Jullado
and Kyungsangdo
came to Seoul to find
job and lived in the boarded house of the poor among the poor, on
the top mountain of Ahyundong.
They used charcoals for heating and cooking day and night, sometimes
putting them inside a room. They were gassed. They were not allowed
to take their life in the midst of this suffering and miserable
incidents. At times, the wind blew into the poor houses, with people
half-killed. They survived only to suffer more.
I preached
hopes to these people living on the margins. I did not teach the
commandments or the law. I did not teach about religion. I did
not preach about Christianity but about hopes through which one
can get the holistic salvation in Jesus Christ. I continued to
preach about the message of hopes in spite of many accusations
from every corner of other denominations and church leaders. However,
in fact, so many people came to our church to find hopes and slept
at our church to listen to the message of hopes. People of our
church were often blamed for praying aloud with unspeakable gestures
or shouting. They say, “Church must be quiet, solemn, and holy.
How come they are praying with noises, weeping, and clapping?”
It is right that middle/upper-class people of intellectuals did
not have to weep or clap. But this people had to cry because they
didn’t have background, education, family fame, money and life.
That’s why they cried aloud listening to the message of hope at
the church. One has to cry to live in this situation. Otherwise,
one cannot live due to the depression. I therefore told the members
of my church to cry. They were told to feel like children who
have a father, and to pray aloud crying like kids. Our church
was like a funeral house because victims or the oppressed, all
kinds of miserable people came to pray with free shouts. After
this crying and shouting, I asked them to sing aloud like children
before their father to be rejoicing. Praying aloud in unison,
and singing with hands, people experienced healing and spiritual
salvation, with their stress washed away, and with their heart
calmed down. With this faith and experience, they find God to
help them. Moreover, they help each other. Positive, creative
thinking and attitude change their life. If one has negative,
hopeless, destructive and pessimistic attitude of life, it does
harm to the self and the others as well. Norman Vincent Bill,
a famous American, wrote a bestseller book Positive Thinking.
One day a shabby person, visited Dr. Bill and said, “Dr. Bill,
I am broke, and I am nothing. Do I have any hope? If I don’t find
hope after listening to you, I am going to die” Bill then asked
this poor man to write on the blank sheets of paper, “write down
what I asked you to write”: “First of
all, do you have a wife? Yes I have. Even though I am not good
enough, she is still with me. Second, do you have children? Yes
I have. Though I do not educate them well, but they are good.
Third, do you have friends? Yes I have some good friends. Fourth,
do you have tastes? Yes I have. I can eat well if any. You can
eat whatever you wish whereas a sick millionaire cannot eat at
all. Fifth, do you have good sleep? Yes I sleep well though I
don’t make good money. You are blessed because famous persons
have hard time to sleep. And are you healthy now? Yes I am.” Then
this poor man read what he wrote: I have my wife, children, friends,
tastes, good sleep, and health. Dr. Bill said, “Why did you tell
a lie? Entering my office, you told me you don’t have anything
with you. See how much you have. Why do you see what you don’t
have without seeing what you have? This man nodded and said, “I
didn’t know that I had this much. I thought I didn’t have anything
when I came to you. But now I see I have many.” This man, changing
his attitude for life, went out with confidence, and got a job.I
feel my job is to give hopes and dreams to the people who need
them. If one has hopes and dreams, one can go to anywhere. I have
traveled through the entire globe as much of 80 rounds of the
earth and wherever I went,
Africa, North America,
Europe, and South America,
I found a common want of people: they search for the hopes and the
dreams. One and half million people gathered in Sao
Paulo, Brazil.
I told them to find a hope and a dream in Christ. We work throughout
the world to give hopes and dreams. We founded Hansedae,
Gukminilbo,
Ellim
(social agency) to train the unfortunate young, Bethesda
College in USA,
and Good Samaritans and others in Africa
and Asia and North
Korea. For
me what matters in life is to find hopes and dreams by believing
in Jesus Christ. Buddhism, Cristianity and Muslim are equal as
religion. I, as a pastor who grew up with a Buddhist home, find
much commonness between Christianity and Zen Buddhism: “Buddha
is in your heart” is similar to Jesus’ saying that the kingdom
of heaven (or God) is not said to be here or there; Jesus is in
your heart. “Buddhist paradise is accomplished here in your heart,
not after death.” Likewise, Jesus’ teaching goes hand in hand
with a Buddhist teaching; the kingdom of heaven must be here in
your heart. Don’t look forward to the heaven after death. Law
and commandments reveal your sins but faith in Jesus and salvific
life automatically bring forth energy or capacity with which to
keep the law or the commandments. That is why I like the thought
of Wonhyo, a Buddhist monk, who emphasized simple salvation that
can be available to all through reciting the four letters of na-moo-ami-tabul. Then people are able to keep the rules.
All these parallel teachings show the common character of faith
in both religions.
I like a
Buddhist TV channel. I benefit from this channel, and feel peace
of my mind when I watch and listen to the lecture of this TV program;
I feel at home with Buddhism. So I listened
to the whole series of lecture by professor Byungjo
Jung. I find, however, others’ lectures hard to follow because
of their complex, philosophical contents. I consumed his TV lecture
series and books as well. I like him because his lecture is easy
to understand. Why do I listen to Buddhist lectures often? Because
of those lectures, I was able to deepen my faith of Christianity.
In that respect, I realize the necessity of inter-religious dialogue.
Thank
you.
Here
begins his Q & A
What
is your hope now? Do not take it too seriously.
Cho: Religion is a foundation
to intellectual, cultural life. As an understanding about Christianity
is essential to know the West, so to know Korea
it is also essential to understand about Buddhism and Confucianism.
But now Korean situation is chaotic because there is no central,
dominating religion to put order; Young people are very confused
because of the existence of communists, pleasure-seeking practice.
I
think we can solve this problem by creating a dominating religion
under which ethical, moral, practical, philosophical worldview
and life will be established. Therefore, Buddhism or Christianity
should be stronger in this country. Because there is no such powerful
dominating religion, even excellent government policies will not
be implemented or accepted to the public.
For
this reason, I hope that Buddhism/Christianity would be flourishing
and also that Buddhist-Christian dialogue would take place. If
I live a longer life, I would like to go overseas to preach the
gospel and also to contribute to making a space for dialogical
culture, because I believe that through the recognition of mutual
differences and dialogue we will have an opportunity to work together
aiming at reconciliation. I am considering inviting Dr. Han to
a Christian meeting. For example, the mercy of Buddha or the love
of God is not different from each other as seen from its practice.
I like to spend more time working on this business of mutual cooperation.
Question: About twenty years ago, one student insisted that
there is no salvation except through Jesus. I told him/her to
check with his/her pastor and come back to me. However, he/she
repeats the same answer.
Cho:
That is right. Buddhism is an elder religion as a religion of
Korea
for a long time. What if Buddhism goes to exclude all other religions
without recognizing differences? Because pastors think exclusively
repeating the absoluteness of Christianity, not recognizing the
differences and distinctiveness of other religions, there might
be danger of conflicts. After retiring, I think I need to work
on this reconciliation through dialogue. Religions are equal.
Question: I know there is no other way of salvation except
through Christ. Based on your sayings today, may I think that
there are other ways of salvation than Christianity, Jesus or
God?
Cho: There are differences
with each other. Buddhism has its own message of salvation. Likewise,
Christianity has its own message of salvation. No one religion
can transcend the limit of each; that is why I suggested a mutual
dialogue with the recognition of the mutual differences. We can
not criticize what Buddhism says. We don’t have such rights to
do so. We have to respect each religion as they are formulating
salvation. My point is that we should live together with common
ground of religion, that is to say, with respect for the differences.
Within my family-side and relatives there are still Buddhists,
but I don’t feel any resistance from them because we recognize
mutual differences. My brother is confident about his salvation
through Buddhism and I acknowledge it. Though I am a Christian
pastor, I cannot insist that only Christianity is true and that
salvation is possible only through it. We cannot gain a principle
of mutual living if one thinks, “I have to kill you and I would
live.” That is not something that Buddha or Jesus wants. It is
a violation of the principle of the mercy (of Buddha) or the love
(of God).
Q: You are leading the biggest church in Korea.
You said that the smallest unit of the church is a 15-member church,
in which sense you said, “I am a pastor of the smallest church.”
What do you mean by it?
Cho: I once fainted during
the sermon because of over-work in 1964. My doctor at the hospital
recommended me to stop working as pastor of four or five thousand
members’ church because my body and mind were so much ruined.
I got stuck in my hospital bed for a while. So I could not continue
to preach, counsel, or visit members and I realized this: Why
should only pastor work in ministry? I could train lay persons,
who can take a responsibility of five or ten homes for this each
trained lay leader. They could counsel, visit with comfort; then
I could save my burden. I therefore began to train lay persons.
The five-homes-bound unit functioned like church where they study
the bible, pray together, and evangelize people. As a result,
the church membership grew like the snowball. We have about 50,000
unit leaders now. By this unit organization, we certainly have
advantage that more genuine and comfortable fellowship is taking
place in the homes where they meet. This way our total members
of 700,000 are cared. I cannot take care of all these people.
We also use internet as an important tool for our ministry efficiency.
700,000 listen to my preaching every Sunday and 5000,000 people
get access to the internet preaching of mine. These days’ young
people do not attend the church services. They have internet service
at home and send offerings via internet too. Each cell leader
or members send questions via internet and I answer them through
internet. Now is a time of dialogue, and I cannot deliver sermon
unilaterally. Sunday preaching must be careful because people
ask preachers through online, which is a great contrast to the
old way of preaching, one-way delivery. The church can make use
of this internet for its benefits. In a cyber space, people gather,
pray, worship and send questions to me and I send back my own
answers to them. This is how our church functions with 700,000
members.
Q:
In modern medicine, mind/heart is reacted or caused by the play
of the brain. Do you think that heart/mind is in the area of the
brain or outside of it? You said, “let us find Christ in heart.”
Is heart within or without?
Cho:
According to a materialistic or evolutionary view, humans are
mere materials. But I am sure that from a religious point of view
heart resides in our brain. And the brain is a tool for heart.
In my ministry experiences I used to observe persons who had mysterious
experiences. A staff pastor in our church died from the heart
attack. A death certificate was issued and in three days a corpse
was put in a coffin. Then suddenly he arose and lived. He told
us his spiritual journey after death. It is sure evidence that
body and spirit was separated. In our religious life with deep
meditation we often experience an enormous journey into our heart
without going through the brain. I also through meditation experience
such mysterious feelings, whose world transcends time and space,
and it is an eternal world of peace. This kind of mysterious experience
cannot be made by the brain only. Heart resides in me and my self
is heart. In other words, my heart owns my flesh.
Q:
The ultimate hope is to overcome death
in Christianity, and thus resurrection is at center of the Christian
message. We are going to ask you about this next semester. This
age is at danger of environmental crisis. Arnold
Toynbee suggested that the root cause of this ecological crisis
lies in Christian thought. What do you think about this? Based
on Genesis 1:27, 29.
Cho: A materialistic perspective poses
human-centered dominance of nature, resulting in the destruction
of the environment. Taking care of nature has nothing to do with
its merciless destruction. From another angle, divinity resides
in every thing in the creation of God; God created all. Therefore,
if there is divinity in all things, we should rule all things
with God’s presence, not for our own selfish purposes. Like Buddhist
teaching, one cannot kill even a small insect because Buddha is
kind and merciful. God in Christianity care about all things and
resides in all, and at the same time going beyond them. God resides
in all creation and therefore in grass and insects as well. Therefore,
we cannot do harm to nature. Ecology is important from God’s perspective. |
